Lump in cheek

[Danibear18]

I gave her 0.02 this morning. Called the vet when they opened and you are right…they have now said 0.07ml based on her weight of 0.17kg.

She definitely said 0.21 but now they think she was meant to say 0.02. It was a phone call so I can’t prove anything unfortunately.

Soooo glad I messaged on here as I’d still be unknowing overdosing Peanut

I’ve asked what I should do now and they said not to give her any for 24 hours now and the only side affect would be diarrhoea so I’m keeping an eye out. I gave her some fresh food before each dose to help line her stomach but I doubt that will make any difference when I was giving her 3 times the required amount of Baytril!

The good news is the swelling has gone down loads but the lump still seems the same size. She was eating, drinking and playing yesterday evening and early this morning x

 

[Maz]

Aw I'm so glad you checked and didn't give her another big dose. I was fairly sure it wasn't already diluted. This kind of thing happens a lot and as hamsters have such tiny amounts of meds, it's always best to double check if it seems a large amount. It happened to me once ......... Thankfully I double checked before giving the big dose! In my case, the correct dose was on the label on the bottle, but the vet had shown me the 0.3 marking on the syringe to show where to draw it up to! Instead of the 0.03 marking. Some vets do have difficulty working out the dose if they're not used to hamsters! I'm very glad you told us the dose!

It sounds like she tolerated the big dose of antibiotic very well and hopefully it'll have knocked that infection on the head quicker! If that had been metacam though, it could have been fatal I think.

As she has had a big dose, and it does affect their gut, I would start giving her probiotics now. People often given probiotics at the same time as or after a course of antibitiocs, to help the gut go back to normal afterwards. You can't use human probiotics though, like yoghurt as they don't have any effect, there are hamster specific ones. Dr S Potent Brew is probably the best one in the Uk. I'll link it. You can just mix it in some baby food or drop it on some other soft food. One of our long standing experienced members uses this.

Potent Brew - Dr. S

So her weight is 170g. To be honest 0.07 still sounds a little high to me, but there will be some variation in tolerance as to how high it can go.

 

[Danibear18]

So so so glad I messaged in here! I feel like you go to vets for advise and help, and trust them to instruct you correctly. Unfortunately that’s not the case …. Same with doctors!

Thank you so much for your help, I’ll definitely get the pro-biotic for her too.

I’ve cancelled the follow up appt at the original vets tomorrow and after many calls, have found an exotic vet who had one appt available on Monday which I’ve nabbed.

Gosh it’s not easy to find exotic vets! I ended up calling a local exotic pet shop who highly recommended this particular vet.

Really hoping this vet can investigate further than just squeezing the lump. Last time the vet ruptured it and a lot of liquid came out all over Peanuts mouth and neck. However It’s still the same size - like a large marble and even though the swelling has gone down the actual lumps doesn’t seem to be shrinking at all.

It’s so worrying when they’re so little and delicate. We had the most traumatic experience when we lost our last hamster - Nibbles. I’m not sure my kids (or I) can cope with another early loss. Trying to remain positive I just know it’s so much harder with loves like Peanut

 

[Maz]

I know. Do keep positive and it's great you've found an exotic vet. They know much more about hamsters. Most general vets really don't get trained about hamsters specifically and that is sometimes the issue. I have to travel about an hour to our exotic vet. It's a total pain but it's worth it.

 

[Socks' Mum]

Yes, excellent that you have an exotic vet. Holding on for Monday. It's such a pity, things were going so well. He just got a bit too enthusiastic about the straw (possibly). Poor boy. The antibiotic should keep him going until the exotic vet can see him Pouches seem to be problematic at times. I'm hoping the exotic vet will be able to access the wound and take a good look at it.

 

[Danibear18]

Right I’m in a real pickle here, so far I’ve been to the second vet who managed to inspect her far more thoroughly, and got a syringe inside her mouth to look at the lump. He said it’s firm but moves so it doesn’t seem to be fused to anything and it’s the size of a cherry tomato. He said she needs to have some gas so they can turn the cheek inside out and find out what’s actually going on in there. He recommended we book the anaesthesia and potential procedure in one go.

He is now on annual leave for a week so has referred us to another exotic vet who had quoted the following:
£160 for a second opinion consultation
£150-£300 for peanut to go in as a day patient for the anaesthesia
Then whatever the cost of the procedure after this whether it’s removal or draining etc

The vet also said animals of this size don’t always do well with procedures as all their organs are so tiny and they can’t resuscitate easily etc.

I’ve already paid £200 so far in appts and antibiotics and pain relief and I really don’t what to do here. The cost is extortionate and I still have no answer to what the actual cause is

 

[Socks' Mum]

Right I’m in a real pickle here, so far I’ve been to the second vet who managed to inspect her far more thoroughly, and got a syringe inside her mouth to look at the lump. He said it’s firm but moves so it doesn’t seem to be fused to anything and it’s the size of a cherry tomato. He said she needs to have some gas so they can turn the cheek inside out and find out what’s actually going on in there. He recommended we book the anaesthesia and potential procedure in one go.

He is now on annual leave for a week so has referred us to another exotic vet who had quoted the following:
£160 for a second opinion consultation
£150-£300 for peanut to go in as a day patient for the anaesthesia
Then whatever the cost of the procedure after this whether it’s removal or draining etc

The vet also said animals of this size don’t always do well with procedures as all their organs are so tiny and they can’t resuscitate easily etc.

I’ve already paid £200 so far in appts and antibiotics and pain relief and I really don’t what to do here. The cost is extortionate and I still have no answer to what the actual cause is

Oh no I am so sorry to hear poor Peanut and her family are having such a difficult time.

 

[Maz]

I am so sorry. You're right you haven't even had a diagnosis - just that there is a lump. Those prices do seem very high. I had a lump removal on one of our Syrians (although was about 6 years ago now), and it cost £160 in total, including the anaesthetic, surgery and any post op meds (a bottle of metacam might have been extra I can't remember) and that was just all done in a day. So it does seem very expensive, even though everything more expensive 6 years later.

And no real reason for Peanut to be kept in overnight.

I think you could maybe find your own exotic vet, rather than a referral, and have a second opinion (although that might mean another £50 vet fee again). And that exotic vet is also likely to suggest surgery but you'd be dealing directly with them and could discuss options directly regarding cost and timing (ie day case).

Have they confirmed that the lump is in the pouch/part of the pouch? And confirmed it's not an abscess?

 

[Maz]

Thinking about it, if it hasn't reduced in size or disappeared after antibiotics and pain relief then it probably isn't an infection/abscess, although sometimes it takes more than a week of antibiotics.

Also is there a PDSA in your area? The PDSA have animal hospitals and they do surgery without charge.

How old is Peanut now? Most hamsters do survive surgery and anaesthetic these days, it's quite rare for them not to survive an anaesthetic, unless they are particularly unwell generally to start with, and then a vet wouldn't usually recommend surgery.

But at the moment you don't even know if the lump is benign or malignant. A cherry tomato size is quite large for a hamster pouch.

However if it's a cancerous tumour, I believe it's quite complicated in the pouch area and hard to remove completely and there could be recurrence - and this is why you really need to speak to an exotic vet yourself - and have that conversation - they will know about prognosis and whether surgery is worth the risk or palliative care ongoing might be better.

 

[Socks' Mum]

Yes, having your own vet makes sense. I wonder how far the nearest really good exotic vet is from you. For a vet with lots of experience, the op should be OK, and should be less than the quote as Maz says, Peanut could come home once she is awake, which should be really quickly for a rodent. It might just need having a piece of something pulled out, with luck, and then proceed to heal. The price is worth it, but getting a good vet might be tricky

 

[Maz]

Just updated my last post.

 

[Maz]

Have you googled exotic vets in your region? An exotic vet usually knows a lot about hamsters - mine would give a prognosis straight away. I'm so sorry you're going through this. You don't have to rush this decision right now.

One question - how long has Peanut been on the antibiotics now - not very long I think.

 

[Socks' Mum]

Could they do a needle biopsy from the outside to check for cancer cells?

 

[Socks' Mum]

I am also slightly alarmed at the idea of putting the antibiotics in water, and also that your vet doesn't seem to know what to do with hamsters (sorry!). I would get a second opinion from an exotic vet, because normally they would give a small whiff of anaesthetic gas to inspect. It's possible they realised something had burst so no need for that however. But the antibiotics are important - if they don;t get the full dose, then the infection can get worse - it needs to be a consistent dose. And putting medication in the hamsters water is not advisable at all. Firstly the hamster won't get a proper dose regularly and secondly the hamster could stop drinking the water and die of dehydration.

Sorry but I'm really surprised a vet advised putting it in their water. Is it Baytril? Enroflaxin is the other name. It's the usual one given to hamsters. And as mentioned above, it does taste nasty. There are only really two ways to give it. One is to syringe it into the hamster (and they might spit it out again) and the other is to disguise it in a tiny pea sized amount of strong food - meaty food tends to disguise it.

Or you can draw up a bit of runny honey into the syringe after the antibiotic dose and see if the hamster will take it from the syringe. The honey disguises the taste. Some hamsters will happily lick it from the syringe as you administer it that way.

The hide with the straw roof is best left removed just in case.

Here is some interesting info about antibx and dilution that I didn't know about https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/enrofloxacin-baytril.190396/#post-2999734

 

[Maz]

I think it's the same baytril - it may be different with guinea pigs as well. I think the dose has been established now. That thread also mentions Co Trimoxazole which is a different antibiotic to baytril. But it's worth finding out about. I think Peanut's dose has been established for a hamster now though.

 

[Danibear18]

So the vet I went to on Monday hasn’t finishes his qualification but specialises in small animals and seemed far more thorough.

He has referred me to Cambridge Vets Group and those prices are with their exotic vet. We are based in Hertfordshire

She is 15 months old and we started the antibiotics on the 9/3 - Baytril at 0.07ml with added Arthrocam as pain relic and anti-inflammatory at 0.17ml every 12 hours.

He managed to open her mouth and push the lump forward where it was building at the front so he said it’s good it moves. The first (rubbish) vet popped it on the 9/3 and loads of liquid came out. It looked clear rather than yellow which the new vet said suggests it not being an infection.

 

[Socks' Mum]

The Queen Mother Animal Hospital houses the Royal Vet College Exotics Department. They are probably the best exotics dept you can get and see my piggies. Try to get an apt with them. You could try to go as a new patient so they don't ask for notes. The vets teach at the college. It is in Hatfield

 

[Maz]

It would seem the RVC (Royal Veterinary College) has an exotics hospital in your area There is an email addressfor non urgent cases on the link below. It doesn't mention anything about costs but assume it isn't free (PDSA is sometimes free). However with it being a hospital they may suggest an overnight stay again.

Exotic and Small Mammals

The RVC Exotics and Small Mammals Service provides referral vet services for exotic pets including small mammals, reptiles, birds, amphibians and ornamental fish.

www.rvc.ac.uk

The PDSA has an animal hospital in Hendon (although their web page says they're not taking new registrations - whether that includes surgery or not I'm not sure)

Hendon PDSA Pet Hospital

Details for Hendon PDSA Pet Hospital

www.pdsa.org.uk

The PDSA hospital at Bow in London is taking new clients. It may not be completely free but is usually quite subsidised.

Bow PDSA Pet Hospital

Details for Bow PDSA Pet Hospital

www.pdsa.org.uk

A 15 month old hamster is only 3 months off the beginning of old age at 18 months. Despite still not being old yet, there is still the option for conservative care with pain relief, which a vet may discuss if it seems surgery may not completely resolve the matter if it's malignant (ie if it's one that would be difficult to remove entirely or likely to have spread). They never know if it's malignant or not until after surgery and a biopsy, but if it doesn't respond to antibiotics it's usually considered to be a tumour - either benign or malignant.

One of my hamsters had a mammary tumour that appeared so quickly, it was already considered too large for surgery - I think he was about 18 months old. It ended up not growing much more and he lived out his life on pain relief quite happily. My exotic vet was sure it was malignant as she said mammary tumours nearly always are, but either way it was conservative treatment due to the size of it.

 

[Maz]

The Queen Mother Animal Hospital houses the Royal Vet College Exotics Department. They are probably the best exotics dept you can get and see my piggies. Try to get an apt with them. You could try to go as a new patient so they don't ask for notes. The vets teach at the college. It is in Hatfield

Posted at the same time That sounds like a good option as well Is it the same RVC one I linked above or a different one?

 

[Socks' Mum]

A new patient apt costs about £80 but it's £58 after that. Their fees are very reasonable and they try to assist cost wise. I'm pretty sure they would release Peanut after the op if she is OK after it.