species or breed

[Member ID2]

We know that hamsters are separate species not breeds.

A dwarf hybrid is the result of humans breeding the two dwarf species of Campbells and Winter Whites.

Does that not make a dwarf hybrid a breed rather than a species?

 

[elusive]

I’m not sure a hybrid is either!
Hybrids, breeds & species are all different things.

 

[Maz]

That's a really good question Beryl. I think it's still classed as a species because a breed is technically a variety of a one single species (eg dogs). Whereas hamsters are more than one species. If that makes sense. But maybe hybrids are a sub species? I think of a breed as a specific type like a poodle or west highland terrior. ie they are all the same breed of the species. Whereas hybrid hamsters are still a mix of two species. Effectively it's like a cag (a mix of a cat and dog) in terms of mixing species - which is why many experienced owners (and pedigree breeders) are so very anti people breeding hybrids. It wouldn't be good to create a Cag and would risk cats and dog species dying out. I got that example from somewhere else btw.

 

[elusive]

There is something called hybrid speciation which can occur naturally when two species interbreed & become a third, fertile, species, many hybrid animals aren’t fertile but if they are & continue to thrive as a new species then they are a species if that makes sense.
I guess with hybrids bred with hybrids rather than continuously crossing the original species you could say they’re a new species.

 

[Maz]

The only thing is I can't see how they can be a new species as each hybrid will have either more Winter White or more Campbells genes so no two hybrids will be the same. And hybrids bred from hybrids will be the same perhaps (although if you get mainly winter white genes (visually) and only breed those it could be sub species of winter white perhaps). So it can't even be a breed if each one born has a different gene mix. A breed of dog for example - eg poodle - will all but just poodles and all look like just poodles. Mixing breeds causes mongrels. But mixing species I think doesn't create a breed. And hybrid is probably the correct name for them! They're a hybrid of two breeds.

 

[elusive]

It is different to naturally occurring hybridisation, as the two species have been crossed from so many different sources & continue to be crossed, it may even be quite a unique class of hybrids in the way it’s continuous rather than a one off, there are some weird hybrids out there, like lions & tigers crossed but you don’t see them emerging as a new “species”.

 

[Member ID2]

That would conclude that a dwarf hybrid is neither species nor breed but exactly that. A hybrid. A cross of two species.

So, when put together by humans, a Campbell and a Winter White would mate even though they are two different species and not necessarily of the same size which could lead to serious complications while giving birth, birth and genetic defects etc.

I wonder if they would mate in the wilds which wouldn't be possible geographically but given the opportunity.

 

[elusive]

I think it’s quite possible that if it was geographically possible they would mate in the wild but whether they’d survive in enough numbers to become a separate species is questionable.

 

[Maz]

I can't imagine them cross mating in the wild - even if it was geographically possible. There wouldn't be the need as they live in colonies and I think would be more likely to be territorial about another colony species nearby, and see them off.