Hybrid diets

[Maz]

Just wondering what Daisy and Elusive think about this post elsewhere - I believe it's from a German hamster owner. I found it interesting as I didn't realise glycerine was actually a sugar. I think it may be a little bit over the top as there's a difference between a hamster having diabetes and being a diabetes prone species.

Also a chew stick is not quite the same as a main diet perhaps. I'm aware carbohydrates need to be at correct levels but hamsters do need to eat some things! The Rodipet hybrid mix is supposed to be species specific and that contains Buckwheat. I'm not sure that yeast is an issue either.

"Long post ahead, but (in my opinion ) an important topic. So when I got back into hamster care a few months ago, I saw how many people were recommending whimzees as hamster chews - on youtube, tiktok and here on reddit aswell. I got curious since I had never seen these in the german hamster community and considered getting one for my dwarf, so I did some research.
Listen, I know this will be an unpopular opinion that many people do not want to hear, but I do not think whimzees are safe for (dwarf) hamsters. The first two ingredients are potato starch and glycerin. Potato starch is extremely hard to digest for hamsters and generally not really considered safe. Glycerin is a sweetener, not ideal for diabetes-prone dwarves. A little further down the list we find dried yeast - yet another unhealthy ingredient for hamsters. These are my sources, they are all in German but you can translate them if you're interested:
https://tier-experten.com/hamster-kartoffeln/ [potato starch is a health risk] https://www.mr-crumble.shop/blog/duerfen-hamster-haferflocken-getreide [yeast is unhealthy] http://www.diebrain.de/hi-frischfutter.html [potato starch hard to digest] https://www.das-hamsterforum.de [i found multiple threads on these ingredients]
They might be okay for Syrians as a rare treat, but I would definitely not recommend them for dwarves, especially hybrids. And to be honest, they are not exactly healthy for Syrians either. Will they survive eating them? I mean, yes. And with the sweetener so high on the ingredient list, it's understandable why many hamsters go crazy for these chews. But there are so many more natural and healthier options available that I don't really see the point in feeding them... though ultimately it is your choice.
I also wanted to say that I generally noticed in the english speaking hamster community that not enough people make the very important distinction between syrians and dwarves when it comes to nutrition. People often recommend snacks that are way too sugary for dwarves and do not specify that those treats are only suitable for syrians.
"Because of the high risk of diabetes, dwarf hamsters are not allowed to eat any fruit (even a small piece), no grains (wheat, spelt, rye, etc.), no dried vegetables, no sugary vegetables (carrot, corn, etc.), no pea flakes, no pea flour." [https://hamsterhilfe.at/hamsterarten/zwerghamster/]
I will say that it's unfortunately still very hard to find good english sources on this topic, and I don't blame anyone for making these mistakes - nobody is perfect, we all continue to learn as we go! But in my opinion it's important to spread more awareness, especially when bad nutrition poses a genuine health risk for dwarf hamsters."

 

[elusive]

Glycerine doesn’t increase insulin production in the same way as sugar does I haven’t done a lot of research on that but I don’t really see it as a problem, I’ve never been aware of potato starch being an issue for hamsters either, not something you’d want to make up a large proportion of the diet but the amount in a whimzee should be fine.
I find the general tone of the post a bit over the top or maybe over reactionary personally, to say diabetes prone species shouldn’t have grains or pea flakes which actually make up quite a good part of the diet seems extreme & not scientifically based. Complex carbohydrates are an important element to include in the diet & also these provide fibre which slows absorption of sugar & helps reduce insulin highs.
Also I’ve never heard of yeast being a problem for hamsters.

As far as whimzees are concerned I think experience over many years shows that these aren’t harmful or something to be avoided for diabetes prone species & wouldn’t want anyone to be worrying about that.

I didn’t read through the German link, I really don’t like all those adverts!

 

[Maz]

I think so too - thank you. This was mainly to reassure people on here in case they came across that elsewhere.

 

[Maz]

The links in that post are also contradictory! The second one says this

"Grain feeding in hamsters

The dry food of your hamster is mostly made of grain. Grain feeding is particularly important for hamsters, as it is the main source of energy for hamsters. Weaving provides important minerals, vitamins and trace elements. In addition, these contain healthy fats! Since your hamster loves variety, various cereals should also be an integral part of the hamster diet."

 

[elusive]

Yes it is, I think someone hasn’t really researched things thoroughly & has come to some mistaken conclusions maybe.

 

[Maz]

Agree. Selectively read certain things. We know raw potatoes are bad as that's on the food list. Even hybrids need a certain amount of carbohydrates, so everything is a balance - their teeth need to be healthy too!

 

[Daisy]

I actually don't really feed Whimzees much nowadays partly because of these types of concerns (not necessarily the exact same ones). I've never mentioned it before because I know they're popular and I don't want to sound like I'm criticising others. I consider them occasional treats really, and Leo has actually never had a Whimzee so far. Mainly it's because I think they're just not the most nutritious food. A lot of hamsters will eat them voraciously and they're not something I personally want to make up a significant portion of my hamster's diet.

I would emphasise that I'm not saying that those who do feed Whimzees are wrong! I know there are things that I do or feed that others have concerns about, so we all have individual preferences. And at the end of the day, until somebody manages to prove a case of actual harm from a Whimzee, these concerns are purely theoretical and shouldn't be held too tightly.

There is a lot of useful information on German forums but I would agree with Elusive that the tone of this post is a bit over the top and I find that's a common theme on those forums. People will often identify a theoretical concern - one that sounds logical in theory but has never actually been observed to be a problem in reality - express it in a very authoritative-sounding way, and blow it up to be more than it is.

I'm also not keen on the phrasing "dwarf hamsters are not allowed". Allowed by who? There are no hamster police so anyone is allowed to feed their hamster anything as long as doesn't come under animal cruelty laws (e.g actual poison), but some things are a better idea to feed than others. But I think it's an idea peculiar to the hamster community that there is some kind of higher power that decides on care guidelines which everyone ought to follow.

 

[Maz]

Agree they are not a nutritious food but intended for chewing or gnawing on for dental benefits. Raffy tends to gnaw his a bit and then leave the rest. I suppose if a hamster demolishes and eats the entire whimzee quickly, it would be best to keep it as a very occasional chew stick and find other things for them to gnaw on as well.

Dandelion roots are popular for gnawing as well but eating too much of that probably isn’t too good for them either as it’s diuretic - although most just gnaw them a bit I’ve found.

I’ve never found a hamster will gnaw things that are good for them! Like willow or apple sticks! I will occasionally give a vitakraft chew stick for gnawing purposes - as the food stuck on the outside encourages gnawing - but they tend to have honey in which is ok occasionally for Syrians.

The rosewood chew sticks with food and herbs on tend to be sugar free - if the hamster will eat them. Some of mine would chew the dandelion ones if not offered any alternative - but then they can have too much dandelion as well.

The main thing is I’ve also never heard of a hamster coming to any harm from chew sticks or whimzee chews but everything in moderation.

 

[Maz]

I actually don't really feed Whimzees much nowadays partly because of these types of concerns (not necessarily the exact same ones). I've never mentioned it before because I know they're popular and I don't want to sound like I'm criticising others. I consider them occasional treats really, and Leo has actually never had a Whimzee so far. Mainly it's because I think they're just not the most nutritious food. A lot of hamsters will eat them voraciously and they're not something I personally want to make up a significant portion of my hamster's diet.

I would emphasise that I'm not saying that those who do feed Whimzees are wrong! I know there are things that I do or feed that others have concerns about, so we all have individual preferences. And at the end of the day, until somebody manages to prove a case of actual harm from a Whimzee, these concerns are purely theoretical and shouldn't be held too tightly.

There is a lot of useful information on German forums but I would agree with Elusive that the tone of this post is a bit over the top and I find that's a common theme on those forums. People will often identify a theoretical concern - one that sounds logical in theory but has never actually been observed to be a problem in reality - express it in a very authoritative-sounding way, and blow it up to be more than it is.

I'm also not keen on the phrasing "dwarf hamsters are not allowed". Allowed by who? There are no hamster police so anyone is allowed to feed their hamster anything as long as doesn't come under animal cruelty laws (e.g actual poison), but some things are a better idea to feed than others. But I think it's an idea peculiar to the hamster community that there is some kind of higher power that decides on care guidelines which everyone ought to follow.

Yes that bit about “dwarf hamsters aren’t allowed to” is over the top and rules out far too many things without considering balance.

 

[Maz]

I’m also not sure where the person who wrote that post got their ingredients information from. This is a list of the contents on the toothbrush whimzee chews and there is no wheat anyway. They are vegetable and glycerin based. It does say they are sugar free so they are clearly not counting glycerin as a sugar!

Composition
Potato Starch, Glycerin, Powdered Cellulose, Lecithin, Dried Yeast, Malt Extract, Lupine. Natural Colorants (Green-Alfalfa Extract 1.0%, Orange-Paprika Extract 0.25%).

Paprika extract is only in the brown/orange ones.

Whimzees Daily Dental Toothbrush X Small Dog Chews | Pets

Buy Whimzees by Wellness Daily Dental Toothbrush for X Small Dogs | Available to order today & Free Delivery on orders over £40

www.petsathome.com

 

[Daisy]

I think Whimzees became incredibly popular years ago because a lot of people thought hamsters need to be regularly chewing "chews" to keep their teeth worn down, and get quite concerned when the hamster doesn't chew wood, as many don't. I think I've only come across one hamster who would actually chew wooden sticks just for the fun of it! Most hamsters will chew a Whimzee so they became popular. Hamsters will usually wear their teeth down quite a bit just from eating, so the chews are mostly extras. Hamsters also aren't stupid (most of the time), and will chew wood if they really need to, as long as it's available to them. I remember people also used to try to flavour wood with fruit juice to encourage hamsters to chew, which is really unnecessary. So I'm not anti-Whimzees but I do think they're a little bit overrated

Also, I had another read of the post and noticed they said dwarf hamsters aren't supposed to have grains. I'm not sure what they think they're supposed to be eating then, because grains are a staple of any hamster's diet. Unless you just only feed proteins and fatty seeds, which sounds really unhealthy, you have to feed grains.

Leo's diet is 70% grains and starchy seeds, and it includes a very small amount of dried carrot. I don't worry about what fresh vegetables I feed him as I don't think any of them really have enough sugar to be a concern when fed in moderation, I just avoid fruit. That seems to be working for him.

 

[Maz]

I also thought that was silly saying they shouldn’t have grains! That is ruling out most carbohydrates.

Many dwarf hamsters won’t have the diabetic gene so a certain amount of sensible diet is a good idea just in case.

 

[Maz]

The Rodipet hybrid food just contains buckwheat and quinoa in terms of actual carbohydrates/grains so keeps it fairly low but not entirely removed. I think even diabetic humans “count carbs” rather than eliminate them.

Although technically buckwheat isn’t a grain.

 

[Daisy]

I also thought that was silly saying they shouldn’t have grains! That is ruling out most carbohydrates.

Many dwarf hamsters won’t have the diabetic gene so a certain amount of sensible diet is a good idea just in case.

And even though Russian dwarfs are more prone to diabetes, it's still quite uncommon and the vast majority won't ever get diabetes. So I do think cutting out grains is disproportionate.

With Chinese hamsters, it seems like it's quite strongly genetic, so I would think drastic dietary measures are probably also unnecessary unless the hamster is from a diabetes-prone line and you're hoping to potentially delay or avoid the onset (which still might not be possible).

It's very risky to cut out an entire class of food anyway. There's a high chance of the diet being deficient in some nutrients unless you're very careful;

 

[Maz]

Clearly Rodipet have avoided grains in their hybrid diet though. Google tells me Buckwheat and Quinoa are “pseudo grains”. So carbohydrates but not technically grains.

Generally it is just sugar and fruit sugars that are advised to be avoided with hybrid Russian dwarf hamsters. And then just a balanced diet. I like the idea that Parsley can help prevent diabetes though which balances out things also.

 

[Daisy]

Clearly Rodipet have avoided grains in their hybrid diet though. Google tells me Buckwheat and Quinoa are “pseudo grains”. So carbohydrates but not technically grains.

Generally it is just sugar and fruit sugars that are advised to be avoided with hybrid Russian dwarf hamsters. And then just a balanced diet. I like the idea that Parsley can help prevent diabetes though which balances out things also.

It also has millet and barley which are grains.

The distinction between grains and pseudo grains is a botanical rather than nutritional one. They tend to be grouped together because they have very similar nutritional properties.

 

[Maz]

Ah yes I missed the barley

 

[Maz]

Anyway nothing has changed . Except possibly go easy on Whimzees.

 

[elusive]

I do think there’s quite a lot of misunderstanding about diabetes & suitable foods, some people who don’t really have enough understanding about things like glycemic load just latch onto the idea of carbohydrates or sugars of any kind being bad & don’t look at foods as a whole hence some strange ideas about grains & even pseudograins.

 

[Maz]

Agree - there is a lot of info about human diabetes and diet and prevention and that is helpful. Humans don’t go on very restrictive diets in terms of cutting whole food families out - and those are the ones that do have diabetes (I mean that ones that have to carb count and don’t have insulin- type 2 diabetes).

The positive thing is that there are foods or supplements that can help prevent the onset of diabetes as well. And even if someone fed a diet that wasn’t perfect - diet is just a cautious preventative measure “in case” a hamster is predisposed - and not all dwarf hamsters are.

I went through a phase of trying to prevent illness in old age on Syrians, by trying a completely organic, soya free diet (when there used to be concerns about GM soya at one time). It made no difference at all to lifespan and disease in old age. When a hamster gets older, something usually starts to go and some is genetics also.

There is a risk of malnutrition if too many things are cut out and the nutritional balance isn’t there.

So any good, sugar free muesli mix is fine for Russian dwarf hamsters - some are better than others - and food supplements can help - but we can’t fix everything.